Frithiof,

  Your point  about the original programmers cashing  out  is probably
  true.

  Here's part  of a post by Robert Monsen in the original  format. You
  can see  the  header showing his email address,  the  date,  and the
  subject. The  page  breaks  are as he entered  them,  and  the ascii
  schematic is quite readable. The link is http://tinyurl.com/5ro7f

  --------------------------------------------------------------------
  From: Robert Monsen (rcsurn...@comcast.net)
  Subject: Re: using a 5v relay with 12v
  Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics, sci.electronics.design
  Date: 2004-12-05 12:25:29 PST

  > Yes, the relay is rated at 5v to turn on, and 250v for whatever it is
  > running.  I have 12v to the coil now, it is getting a bit hot.  I'm not sure
  > if they are supposed to get hot since they are such low resistance.
  >
  > Can you tell me more about the power saving trick?  Do I put a low value
  > resister in series w/ the coil and put a cap in parallel with this resister?
  > what value do you suggest?
  >
  > BTW - are there any simple RC circuits to delay the turn on of the relay for
  > a couple seconds?
  >
  > Thanks!
  > -matt

  It takes a particular voltage, usually something like 80% of the nominal
  coil voltage, to close a relay. However, it takes much less than that to
  keep it closed. You can take advantage of this by using an arrangement
  whereby turning it on generates a larger voltage.
               7V
             +------+
             |      |
           |<      .-.
  CTRL ---|       | | 4.7k
           |\      | |
             |     '-'
             |      |
             o------|--------------------o-----\
             |      |                    |    12V
             |      |                    -   Relay
            .-.     |           ||       ^    Coil
         10k| |     o-----------||-------o-----/
            | |     |           ||       |
            '-'     |                    V
             |    |/            C        -
             '----|                      |
                  |>                     |
                    |                    |
                    '--------------------'
                            GND

  (created by AACircuit v1.28 beta 10/06/04 www.tech-chat.de)
  --------------------------------------------------------------------

  Here's  the   same   post   in   the   new   format.   The   link is
  http://tinyurl.com/667gb

  The same  link  that previously pointed to the  individual  post now
  points to  the entire thread, and previous references  to individual
  links are now broken.

  You have  to scroll down to find the desired message, and it  may be
  difficult to  describe  which one if the  same  person  made several
  entries. This  is  essential  in some  of  the  larger  threads with
  hundreds of posts, but apparently there is no way to do this.

  The text that Robert quoted is not shown. You have to click on 'show
  quoted text'  to  see  it,  and the  link  does  not  work  in older
  browsers. So you may be unable to see what he is responding to.

  The schematic  now has ascii character 160 instead  of  spaces. Your
  browser may  display  this  character   normally,  but  none  of the
  browsers I use can do so. This makes the schematic unreadable.

  --------------------------------------------------------------------
  Robert Monsen
  Dec 5, 12:25 pm     show options

  Matt

  - Show quoted text -

  It takes a particular voltage, usually something like 80% of the nominal
  coil voltage, to close a relay. However, it takes much less than that to
  keep it closed. You can take advantage of this by using an arrangement
  whereby turning it on generates a larger voltage.

              7V
             +------+
            |      |
          |<      .-.
  CTRL ---|       | | 4.7k
           |\      | |
            |     '-'
            |      |
             o------|--------------------o-----\
            |      |                    |    12V
            |      |                    -   Relay
            .-.     |           ||       ^    Coil
         10k| |     o-----------||-------o-----/
            | |     |           ||       |
           '-'     |                    V
            |    |/            C        -
             '----|                      |
                 |>                     |
                   |                    |
                    '--------------------'
                           GND
  (created by AACircuit v1.28 beta 10/06/04 www.tech-chat.de)
  --------------------------------------------------------------------

  If the schematic were part of the original post, it would  appear at
  the top of the thread where lines are automatically broken to fit in
  the narrow  column.  Then, it would not  make  any  difference which
  browser you use. The schematic would be unreadable.

  The same problem exists in the software newsgroups. Often,  a poster
  will include a section of code he wants to discuss with the original
  message. With  the  new  format,   the  code  would  be  turned into
  meaningless gibberish.

  You can look at the tree and try to find the message, but still have
  the problem  identifying it in long threads. The result  is  you may
  waste a great deal of time finding a desired post, and when  you do,
  it may be unreadable.

  These changes make google groups unusable for many people.

Best Wishes,

Mike Monett